Push Back to Power: Creating Empowered Relationships with the Author of PUSH BACK Live, Love, and Work with Others Without Losing Yourself, Tonya Lester

In this inspiring episode of The EmPOWERed Half Hour, Becca Powers sits down with psychotherapist and author Tonya Lester, whose book PUSH BACK: Live, Love, and Work with Others Without Losing Yourself is helping women reclaim their power without losing their compassion.

Key Moments You Won't Want to Miss:

• When Tonya explains the real meaning of “shock absorbing”
• Becca’s reflection on how physical pain revealed deeper stress
• The power of noticing when you’re “rehearsing” conversations to keep the peace
  
  

About Tonya

Tonya Lester, LCSW, is the author of Push Back: Live, Love, and Work with Others Without Losing Yourself and a Brooklyn-based psychotherapist and writer known for her work with relationships and communication.

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Podcast Produced by Jen Kourtei at Savvy Edge Marketing

Transcript

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Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies

Becca Powers: Welcome to another episode of The Empowered Half Hour, and I have another new World Library author for you. I'm so excited when I get to bring my fellow authors into my world. I have today Tony Lester, psychotherapist and author of Pushback, and it's definitely a title that when I first met Tony before going live that I was like, this is gonna be fun.

But Tony, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. 

Tonya Lester: Yes. So how long have you been a 

Becca Powers: psychotherapist for? 

Tonya Lester: About 20 years. So it was actually a second career for me. I was a struggling actor in my days, and then I had my first son and just thought, oh, this isn't gonna be enough for me.

I need to do something different. So yes, a life, 

Becca Powers: an artist. My parents were full-time positions where when I was born so different, but same in the sense that. They eventually had to get real jobs too. 

Tonya Lester: I think you crave stability. I almost feel like you have a baby and all of a sudden you're like, oh no, I'm gonna really root down.

And for me, for other people, they can do that as an artist, but I wanted to be a therapist. 

Becca Powers: Yeah. That's really cool. So let's talk a little bit about what are some lessons you learned as a psychotherapist that influenced you writing this book? 

Tonya Lester: Well, in my office, a dynamic I see over and over again is a couple comes to me really late in the game where basically she's been trying to speak up, she's been trying to assert herself.

She's not happy with the power dynamics in the relationship. She feels disempowered in her relationship and it gets to the point for her where she's tried to. What she needs, and he is not really hearing her. And of course the gender dynamics can go either way, but this is what I see most often. And suddenly she's done and he's freaking out and that's when he's finally willing to go to couples therapy and willing to put in the work and willing to really make a change.

And change is hard. And these dynamics we create, they are grooves and the neuro pathways that get deeper and deeper. But finally he's kind of shocked into wanting to make a change. And she's basically done, like, she feels like she can only empower herself by leaving the relationship and she cannot be true to herself and be empowered and also be in this relationship.

And so often that's it, right? And then she comes to me again often after saying, how can I create. A more empowered relationship starting anew. And I often think, and it's, this is kind of a cliche among couples therapists, like if they came five years earlier, we could have done some really, really good work.

And so that was one example, and then seeing in my own life, in my own marriage, and my sister was in a very difficult marriage, and she's a very powerful person, but all her professional success and all her social success, and having a close family and wonderful kids. Didn't help her from kind of having like, honestly, her life force drained from her.

I really was like, wow, if this can happen to her. And I have a very loving marriage and a very supportive husband. But even I found myself kind of taking a one down position and being disempowered. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna share what I've learned as a psychotherapist and as a human, a woman in the world.

 in this book 

Becca Powers: I have goosebumps from head to toe because so much of what you are saying resonates with me. On personal levels and professional levels. Like I, do a lot of, trauma-informed leadership in organizations. And it's probably not shocking for you to hear because you just used an example, but the amount of powerful women who are in disempowered marriages Yes.

Is very high. Very high. Yes. It's very high. And no one would really know. Mm-hmm. Looking from the outside in, even, you know, from social media, everything looks nicely packaged, but. Their work is great, their kids are great. Like all these relationships are great, but the at home one is really suffering.

Really suffering. I thought really fascinating that you shared that. And do you see that theme 

Tonya Lester: often too, so often. And if you have someone who's very empowered, especially professionally, I think it's embarrassing for her that how disempowered she is in her own marriage. And I will say, you know, I'm a couple's therapist.

I work with women who want to become more empowered in their relationships and in their life. I work with couples where the husband is coming in good faith, but they do not have the skills to have a more collaborative, egalitarian relationship. And so I see a lot of, I always feel like it's good people who really, really want to do often, not always, in which case, sometimes we have to leave, 

But often it's good people Who want to do better. And so I see that again and again and again, and I thought, oh, there's definitely an audience for this message. 

Becca Powers: Yeah, for sure. What is one, big lesson that if a listener is listening to this right and they're like, oh my God, this sounds like me, or this sounds like my friend, or something like that.

What is like lesson or aha that is up for you since writing the book or that you discovered when you're putting those thoughts together? Because I know as an author too, it's like when you go through the process of writing the book and putting all your concepts and awarenesses together, you get.

New awarenesses, right? So I was just kind of curious to see what came up for you. that might be a good listen for the listeners. 

Tonya Lester: I think it's that it's important to allow ourselves to know what we want. I think a lot of women are almost afraid of that knowledge because if they get really, really clear, they might have to make some big painful choices in their life.

And so it's really kind of keying in on who you are. What is your authentic self, what do you want, and what do you value? And then speaking up about it in a clear, concise, direct way. To the person who needs to hear it, not to your best girlfriend. Not to just your therapist, please talk  your therapist.

But really I think women have this knowing and then are afraid to tell the person, usually the spouse, but sometimes even the boss, sometimes the parent who you wanna shift the boundaries around. You have to talk to that person directly. You have to say it. Clearly, and then sometimes you have to say it again, and then you have to say it again.

And sometimes that leads to what I call productive conflict. And I think many, many women are afraid of conflict, so they don't speak clearly. They couch their requests so deeply that it gets lost in the cushions of the couch, and people aren't even clear what they're saying. And so you have to sometimes risk.

Conflict. And one thing that also really, where I felt a need to write a book is sometimes I feel like women's empowerment material acts as though if you learn what you want and become empowered and you say what you need, everyone else will just fall in line and it won't be hard. And so. That is not true.

 it is hard and, people, there's a lot of times that the relationships that cause us the most pain are working just fine for somebody else.  they're not going to want us to rock the boat, but if they care about us, they'll collaborate with us in finding a new way.

So I think that kind of trifecta the simplicity around, know what you want, speak up clearly, be prepared to push back and then you push back yourself. Wow, 

Becca Powers: that's really incredible because I think it is think, well, you know, I'm formally divorced and I also didn't know. I've always been like high performing professional sales leader, big fortune 500 companies, things like that.

And I ended up in a narcissistic work environment 

Tonya Lester: okay, 

Becca Powers: with istic leaders. And I had never been exposed to narcissistic tendencies before. So I got so sucked into it and was in a very disempowered state to the point that one day after like four bad days in a row I collapsed on the bathroom floor. Oh my gosh.

Okay. Yeah, so I understand very intimately like what you're talking about. And then it took, when my first book was self-published, it's called Harness Your Inner CEO. But I wrote that because in my most disempowered state of laying on the bathroom floor, like in fetal position, crying like, I can't do this anymore.

You know? Became an internal, source of empowerment. I kind of heard like a whisper in my head that like, you're the CEO of your life. Hmm. And so like that thought really empowered me because if I'm the CEO of my life, then why am I crying on the bathroom floor? Like I have a much more say in everything that's going down than thought I had.

 but you mentioned it being hard and that was. Once I was in an empowered state, I was ready to take on the hard, but it was hard uhhuh. It took me about two years to really get myself back together. I ended up leaving that job in 90 days, but I think that it's worth saying that it's hard and worth it.

So I don't know if you wanna talk about that a little bit. The hard and worth it. Yeah. 

Tonya Lester: Nothing ever changes without considerable pressure on the system. And by system it could be the workplace, it can be relationships, it could be your family of origin system. We are same, safe seeking creatures, which is why the phrase the hell, you know, is a, cliche because it's, we often are willing to stay in horrible situations because we're familiar with that type of pain.

We are not going to live a authentic life and be known by the people around us unless we step into this power. And what is going to fall off can often be toxic work situations like you described, toxic relationships, toxic self-talk. Even. The only way we get through that is to go through the fire and come out the other side, and I hope.

My biggest hope for this book and my sister, my wonderful sister, said this when she read, I joke. She's my be difficult muse. to really go through the hard stuff and what joy comes out of the other side of that. She said, I felt invigorated when I read the book and the feeling of invigoration, which you know, gives energy for change.

And this idea of like, I can do this. I can make these changes. My life can be better than it is now. I deserve to be. Clear and known and grounded in the truth of who I am. That's my biggest hope for the book, and I absolutely. the irony is that the conflict that's created when you start stepping into this and pushing back, the only true.

Close relationships. The only true emotional intimacy is on the other side of that conflict, right? So we should look at conflict as long as, of course not abusive, not scorched earth conflict. But we should look at that is our strongest bids for connection and our best hope that we can change things so that we can stay, whether in a work environment or in personal relationships.

Becca Powers: So. I mean, I'm like so intrigued by this conversation. I'm like, oh my God, I have so many, like, different ways I could take this and steer this. But I think what's coming up for me right now and, is maybe helping the listener identify earlier in the process where they might push back.

For an example, you said. If they would've came five years earlier. I think it's so often we will face change when we're on the bathroom floor. That's right. At a breaking point. And I think it would be really cool just to talk about where change could happen earlier. 

Tonya Lester: Yeah. You know, I think women are very often socialized to ignore early discomfort.

Right? I'm sure very early on at that job you had a twinge in your stomach or trouble sleeping on Sunday nights feeling like the. Nobody should be able to talk to me that way. But we slowly, you know, the frog and the slowly heating up, pot of water, we just keep adjusting and we try and change our behavior in order to pacify, in this case a narcissistic abuser, but even just someone we wanna be happy with.

Right. It doesn't always have to, there's a continuum of bad behavior and certainly it won't always be abusive. So I think we need to. you know, you're a Kundalini therapist or a yoga therapist, and I really believe that the embodiment and noticing what's going on in our bodies are often our first signs of distress 

Becca Powers: all the time.

All disarm in the body feeling like, yeah, I mean, for two years I'd live with a hook, a stress hook from my ear that wrapped around the back of my shoulder and I was like, oh, I think I injured that at the gym like two years ago. No. Then I'm like, when I left that environment, I'm like, all of a sudden it's gone.

Tonya Lester: That is really weird. Totally. we're encouraged to pay attention to our bodies and I still don't think that we do, our mind is going to try and create a story that makes sense of the bad behavior and where we're somewhat at fault. But I really think it's our brain's way of helpfully trying to help us 

Feel a little empowered in that if we behave perfectly, things will change. But of course, that's such a trap and it really, I think especially as women, it, disempowers us with this idea. I have a concept I talk about a lot in the book called Shock Absorbing, which I think most women operate as the shock absorber in many environments and relationships.

Where we keep taking the brunt of all the hits and bumps in order to make the situation more comfortable for the people around us. And it's not until we start saying, you know what? I'm not taking all these shocks. Like the person giving out the shocks is the one who's gonna have to start absorbing them.

And how we do that. Which often is saying nothing. When someone says something really crazy and holding their gaze until the silence is so uncomfortable that someone has to talk, but it's not gonna be us. You know, making sure that they feel okay about that terrible thing that they just said, or simply, you know, we're allowed to say, I'm not happy.

This needs to change. This isn't working for me anymore. That really upset me. I found that very hurtful. You know, I'm walking around feeling irritated and angry all the time, and so something has to change here. those sentences aren't attacking, they aren't cruel, they're just clear, and I'm really encouraging women to say all those phrases when it's necessary.

Becca Powers: Yeah, what? It would be a warning sign in any, like you said, whether it's love or work. What would be an early warning side? I love how you talked about the body and the shock absorbing. 'cause I think if the listeners are really listening, they're like, yeah, I've been feeling for a lot longer than I had.

But are there any other like early warning signs that someone might be able to catch? 

Tonya Lester: Yeah, I mean, in addition to the body, which I think often our, you know, the body keeps score and I think our body kind of is often the first alert, right? If you, in a work situation, how do other, do other people feel empowered?

Do other people? Is everyone shock absorbing for one very difficult person? Be aware, look for other connections. I think that often we can find. Allyship and connection, like with coworkers, whatnot. Notice the environment. Notice how it feels to walk into a room. Oftentimes it's like, you know, I'm sure probably at this job you're talking about, you had the experience of knowing someone had come in the building before you actually saw them, because the energy shifted so much around for everyone.

Yeah. So those things are important. And also if you find yourself rehearsing, rehearsing, rehearsing. How to say something so that no one else will be affected or you won't trigger someone. That's really, really important. it's pretty rare. We have a relationship where we only have to do that with someone one time.

No, that's usually our MO when dealing with certain people. And so how much you're in your head about not trying to rock the boat, not trying to ruffle any feathers. Those are very, very important. Early signs. And then of course. I think a universal truth is if you find yourself on the bathroom floor crying, you need to make a dramatic change.

Becca Powers: Yeah. 

Tonya Lester: Time to make a change. Right. Exactly 

Becca Powers: like that. You also called out because I agree with you, especially from the my Kundalini background and stuff, and we do a lot of, trauma awareness. I had to read Body Keep the body keeps the score. Yeah. And all of that stuff. So the body is fascinating 'cause it is light years ahead of our mind and heart, you know, like Hearting for a long time.

So I love that you talked about the body, but I also like that you talked about those little narratives that. If we catch ourself, are we really rehearsing? That's the word that really caught me when you were speaking. It's like, are we rehearsing what we're saying? Because that could be an early indicator too.

And I think like these little tips are so big, they seem little, but like from your experience, you've got 20 years experience. You just wrote a book like that. One word of like rehearsing could change somebody's life. Who's listening to this? 

Tonya Lester: I hope so. You The book is, the books I like to read are fiction or narrative nonfiction.

These like beautifully written in depth curiosity about why something happens. This actually isn't that book, like this book. I have scripts in the book. I have exercises in the book. This is like, I want you to be able to take the book and implement it immediately. it's a workbook, right? it's there for you to get ideas and hopefully to give yourself permission to make big.

Big changes because you know, we have one life and we deserve to make it as good as it can be. 

Becca Powers: Yes. So let's talk. We've talked a little bit or a lot, a bit about like the challenging part, but let's start on changing the narrative because we got about 10 minutes left to the empowerment side. I mean, obviously it sounds like that's the core reason you wrote the book was to give that source of empowerment.

You're giving scripts, I mean, you're giving like the tools, like here you go, right? What is your hopes for the book and how it will empower someone if they go through it cover to cover? 

Tonya Lester: I would hope that they're able to change their relationships for the better. I hope that they are loved and heard and seen.

One thing I think about a lot is if we're not telling the truth about who we are, we are blocking that emotional intimacy for ourselves, but also for the other person, And, and here's where I'll get personal. With my husband. He was happy with the way things went when I was really doing a lot of shock absorbing and our relationship and really putting him first and always.

But the truth is, there were things that he knew. I remember him saying one time everything I think, you know, because I tell you, whereas I always feel like there's stuff going on in your head that I don't know. and that was right because I was keeping a lot from him. So on the other side of all that discomfort.

Is emotional connection is emotional. Intimacy is your greatest career. Success is your closest relationship with your best friend, is an honest relationship with your parents, where it can feel reciprocal that you can give and receive love. As an adult, like as equals, that doesn't happen. While we're shock absorbing, that doesn't happen when we're lying either to ourselves or others.

And the idea that women would feel empowered in the ways I'm advocating for in the book, I hope, and I know this, sounds especially right now where we are in the political environment in our country, but I want this. For all of us as a society, right? I wanted to start in individual relationships and ripple out.

And I think when we have that success with people who love us, right? Where we have a lot of leverage, I think that can empower us. You know, moving up the levels from the personal to the collective. That's like my dream. 

Becca Powers: I feel it too. I just got the goosebumps and I'm like, yes. Right. We get, I think that, know, as you bring up more of like.

The collective temperature. There's a lot of us absorbing, shock absorbing 

Tonya Lester: right now. 100%. Yeah. Shock absorbing and then thinking. Also because shock absorbing is really born of a need to protect and for safety. You shock absorbers out there. You're not crazy. You know, you're reacting to a very real environment and we shock absorb to protect ourselves.

We shock absorb to protect our children, maybe especially our daughters. But the truth is, if we're. Over shock absorbing. We're just making ourselves smaller, smaller, smaller, to be safer, safer, safer. And then there is no change either in our individual relationships or for the collective. Good. Right. And one thing I think has to be part of this conversation is that sometimes you do have to leave.

Sometimes if you don't have leverage to change what you need to change. I was just gonna ask that too. Go into that. Yeah. 

Becca Powers: I didn't even get it rough, but I'm like, yes, keep going because that's where I was gonna go next. Keep going. 

Tonya Lester: Well, sometimes you have to kind of pave your way out the door.

And I have a whole section in my book about situations that either you're gonna be having to push back hard all the time and in your personal relationships, you have to decide if you really want, wanna live that way. Right? If you're with someone who's very narcissistic. Anytime you drop your guard, they're gonna go back into these old patterns.

And so you have to be like a strong, no, like a firm assertive, this is what I need all the time, which to me sounds exhausting, right? And so sometimes we have to say, you know what? This person is really resisting the changes I need to see, and I need to go find someone who's more collaborative. 

Becca Powers: Yeah, that's really good advice too, because I think.

Especially women and women that I've worked with. Once they see like a little bit of improvement, they almost take that step back too. That's such a good point. You know? Yeah. And I think, there's this awareness that it is like just something you always have to pay attention to. 'cause not only will somebody who has a tendency, whether it's narcissistic or some other thing, to go back to old patterns.

those patterns have been with us, whether they're healthy or not for a long time. And the pathways are 100% have been there, so we'll slip back too. So I don't know if you wanna talk about that just in case somebody gets empowered and then experiences a slip back. 

Tonya Lester: I love that you brought that up.

That's such a good point. Yeah. I think there's two ways to think about this. One is we ask for what we want, like we finally gear ourselves up, then we almost panic when we're given what we want because it feels uncomfortable. And then there's this like backlash of this idea that what if they're gonna be mad?

What if they're gonna resent me? That type of thing, as opposed to being like, no, you know what the other person wants is very important to me, but my needs deserve a seat at the table too. Right. One pathway that we do have to fight and kind of stay aware of. And then I think there's another piece around intentionality here.

People talk about. Relationships being hard work, and I dislike that characterization. I think sometimes they're hard work, having big conversations and trying to change things. Of course that is hard work. But how I like to look at it is intentionality and energy, and so maintaining a change and keeping a relationship, a good relationship, healthy, it takes a lot of energy and I think we turn our.

Attention to something else, and then it's very easy to slip back. But our primary relationships, we need to be prepared to put energy towards it every day. And if we do that, we're gonna keep it on track. And so this idea of like. I'm gonna give my energy where it's appreciated and where I'm valued, but it still takes energy.

I remember hearing a really beautiful interview with the novelist, Alice Walker, and she talked about when she was writing her first novel, she had two young kids and she was thinking, all I'm gonna do is write and parent. And one thing she would do with her boys is that she made sure when they walked into the room that they.

She lit up, like, I am always happy to see you when you walk in a room. I mean, so beautiful. I do that with my kids and it comes, they're teenagers now, but it comes very naturally. And I realized I wasn't doing that to my husband. You know, I'm like, oh you again, you know, as opposed to, because you're thinking about like the hardness of life or whatever, but if you do that, that makes a difference.

Presumably you are happy to see that, but I think sometimes we try to telegraph our unhappiness. By like sort of a tired or negative vibe, like don't bad vibe your partner, like light up when you see them and then talk directly about what's going on and what you need from them. So that kind of energy and intentionality I think we need to be bringing to all of our relationships.

Becca Powers: It's really beautiful and I love that. Don't bad vibe your partner because it's true. it's like you've been going through your day. I know. I've been guilty of it too. Yes. Like locked the door and I'm like, do you know what my day was like? And it's just like straight to like, almost just bombing him with what my day looks like instead of just at least, you know, he'll share his day too.

 it would've been much nicer just to start with the pleasantries of like, Hey. 

Tonya Lester: Hi. It's good to see you. You know, I love that there's, yeah. It's good to see you. I'm so happy you're here. And when my kids were really little, my husband and I made a rule because what would happen to us is we would start to kind of compete for whose day was worse and who was more tired.

And we were like, we have to stop the tired Olympics. we are not allowed to like bombard, there can't be a competition, right? We're gonna take turns and be supportive of each other. 

Becca Powers: That's really cute, but that is really good to share too. So you've shared so much wonderful advice. We still have a few minutes left, but I wanna open it up to you like, is there a message or a concept or theory or a thought that you haven't shared that you think is important for the listeners to know?

Tonya Lester: I, 

I alluded to this before, but I'll say it again 'cause it's so important. You can change your relationships right now. If you change and you behave differently, all your relationships will have to change. And so I say if you want your life to be different, you have to be different. I hope that the book really lays out the ways to be different in a way that women will find empowering and hopeful and exciting.

 I hope that a lot of people in their orbit will respond positively, and I've seen that happen. Again, and again and again. So I just wanna say, you can do this. This is possible for you. Let's make these changes and I hope I can help. I hope the book helps. 

Becca Powers: I know just from this conversation that you will, and I can't wait to read your book.

I'm like, I'm gonna dive in. Is it on audio too or is it just Yeah, it's on 

Tonya Lester: audio. they had me do the audio, which was kind of as a former actress, kind of a thrill. So it's definitely on audio Kindle, and then of course a hard copy. It's fun. 

Becca Powers: I did mine too, and I was like, isn't that fun? The professionalism of it, like, no, you need more energy or something like that.

I was like, 

Tonya Lester: oh, okay. Yeah, that. I had a couple where there were words. I've clearly been mispronouncing my entire life because I've only read them. It was so funny. Remember 

Becca Powers: what it was, 

Tonya Lester: but it Okay. Exactly. Yeah. So funny. 

Becca Powers: Well, I would love, for you to share with the listeners how to find your book, how to stay in touch with you, give them all the things, Tony.

Tonya Lester: Great. So push back, live, love, and work with others without losing yourself. It should be in bookstores everywhere. Of course, you can order on Amazon or Brunson Noble or Bookshop. My website is tony lester.com and I'm also pretty active on Instagram and that's Tonya Lester's psychotherapy. So I'd love people to pop in and say hello.

Becca Powers: Please follow her. I could love your work. I love this conversation. I'm like, you could see I'm all cheeky. I'm like this one too. Alright. I always like to close out with one more thing you pretty much just did it on the front end of sharing all your information. But if you were to give it statement, just a few words, like a sentence, what's an empowering message you can leave with the listeners?

You deserve it. Make these 

Tonya Lester: changes right now. 

Becca Powers: Now too. I got the goose. Well, thank you so much for being a guest. It was a pleasure to 

Tonya Lester: interview you. Thank you, Becca. This was wonderful. I really appreciate it.